Lateline with Leigh Sales and Mark Arbib
Friday, 05 March 2010
Watch interview online (Windows Media Player)
Subjects: Rudd Government health proposal; Henry tax review; Belinda Neal.
E&OE…
LEIGH SALES When the Prime Minister was asked about his long-delayed health and hospital policy on last Sunday's Insiders program, Kevin Rudd admitted that we didn't anticipate how hard it was going to be to deliver things.
Just days later, he unveiled what he calls the biggest reform to the national health system since Medicare. The states and the Opposition certainly won't make it easy, but succeed or fail, will the health plan be a winner for the Government?
To discuss that and the rest of the week in politics I'm joined in Sydney tonight by the Employment Participation Minister Senator Mark Arbib and the Deputy Liberal Leader and Shadow Foreign Minister Julie Bishop.
Great to have both of you with us in person.
JULIE BISHOP Thank you. Good to be here.
MARK ARBIB Good to be here.
LEIGH SALES Mark Arbib, what guarantee is there that if these hospital reforms are enacted, if all this money is spent, that the public will receive better health care?
MARK ARBIB You've got to look at what's happening now in the health system. When we look at state budgets, hospital expenditure is going up each year by about 11 per cent. At the same time that we know state revenue is not meeting that figure. So it is unsustainable in the long-term for state budgets to meet the growing health demands of the country. So what we're trying to do is get the structures right for the future, have a nationally-funded system, so the Federal Government steps up to the plate, puts in 60 per cent of the funding, but at the same time making sure that it's the people on the ground, the locals that are running the system, and we're talking about empowering doctors and nurses to get better health delivery for patients.
LEIGH SALES But again, how do you know that's going to be more effective than what we've currently got?
MARK ARBIB Well, this has been a long process and the Prime Minister and Nicola Roxon, the Health Minister, have spoken to health staff across the country. They've gone to 101 hospitals, spoken to doctors, nurses, clinicians, they've spoken to medical professionals and we believe we've got the system right.
We believe that if the Federal Government steps in and takes over a larger share of the funding in terms of hospitals - and we're not just talking about procedures, we're also talking about capital, about the hospital buildings and the training - then we are setting up for the long-term sustainability of the health system for the future.
LEIGH SALES Julie Bishop, in a press release on February 13th, Tony Abbott said that the best change that could be made for public hospitals is giving the doctors and nurses who work in them, as well as the community that's served by them, more say over how they're run. Isn't that exactly what the Rudd Government's doing here?
JULIE BISHOP Leigh, most people in Australia hoped that the Prime Minister would make good on his promise to fix public hospitals by June 2009. He admitted the other day that the system is far more complex than he anticipated. Nothing we have seen in this plan, which really is little more than a press release - it's very incomplete, it's lacking crucial details, particularly how it's going to be funded - but nothing in this plan gives us any confidence at all that the Prime Minister is going to fix the health system. Certainly not by the next election, and it appears that this announcement is designed to delay action beyond the election thereafter. So it's very disappointing, and I must say very sad that the Prime Minister raises people's expectations and then just talks and fails to deliver.
LEIGH SALES But your plan on February 13th wasn't detailed either, yet in its broad parameters, it's very, very similar to what Kevin Rudd's announced.
JULIE BISHOP No, what Kevin Rudd is seeking to do is add another layer of bureaucracy. I was out at Westmead Hospital today. They are drowning in bureaucracy. The last thing our public hospitals need is another layer of bureaucracy.
Tony Abbott's plan is to have local hospital boards. That's what they need at Westmead: a local hospital board with the doctors and nurses employed at the hospital having an input, having a say on how that hospital is run. And until the Government accepts that they need local hospital boards, all we've got is a plan without details and it's not funded.
And can I say this is vintage Kevin Rudd. He puts out a plan, says "I have the solution," and yet if you dare question it, as Premier Keneally did quite rightly today, ask questions Kevin Rudd says "Get out of the way." Well, when Kevin Rudd had his way and delivered a Federal Government program, it was the home insulation program and what a disaster that turned out to be.
LEIGH SALES Well isn't, Mark Arbib, that pattern that Julie Bishop raises correct? Because it was the same sort of argument with the ETS, that if you don't support our plan for the ETS, that you're a climate sceptic?
MARK ARBIB Well, no, we want to work with the states and the Prime Minister has said that. And of course there'll be some argy bargy in terms of the negotiations. He said that again today. But this a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for the Federal Government to work with the state governments to finally fix the health system.
LEIGH SALES What about this other point ...
MARK ARBIB Leigh, the Liberal Party have talked about it for a long time. Tony Abbott was the Health Minister for five years. He talked about it, he took control of one hospital in one of the most marginal seats in the country ...
LEIGH SALES Well let's not look backwards, let's look forwards. Let me put that other point to you that Julie Bishop raised about the bureaucracy. Are jobs going to be cut in the state health departments so we don't have duplicating when these local boards comes into play?
MARK ARBIB Well, the Prime Minister has said that in terms of the funding agreement, there'll be no net increase in terms of bureaucrats. That's something that he's saying will be put in place.
LEIGH SALES So there will be job losses then, or ... ?
MARK ARBIB There'll be no net increase in bureaucracy, in bureaucrats.
JULIE BISHOP Well what does that mean?
MARK ARBIB But at the same time as that, let's go back to - and again, Tony Abbott is saying local hospital boards. We've seen local hospital boards in action. We've had them in NSW, they failed abysmally. Tony Abbott's plan for hospitals at the moment is only in terms of NSW and Queensland. Don't bother about improving hospitals around the country let's just focus on NSW and Queensland. Around the country, let me tell you, when I spoke to voters when I go to hospitals, we must improve the hospital system. That is what we're told, that is what the Rudd Government is doing and we're acting.
LEIGH SALES Well last Sunday, as I said in the introduction before, Kevin Rudd said that the Government didn't anticipate how hard it was going to be to deliver things and then a few days later this massive plan comes out. Given his owned admission of the Government's failings, how can we trust Kevin Rudd's team to deliver such a big plan?
MARK ARBIB Well, the Prime Minister has been honest and explained it is a very, very big reform. It is and you said at the start: this is the biggest reform since Medicare, so you've got to deal with it carefully and you've gotta approach it responsibly and we’ve done that…
LEIGH SALES But if you can't get say something like the insulation program right, how do we know you'll get this right?
MARK ARBIB Well in terms of… just to go back to your original question, that is why we approached it carefully. This has been a two year process to get this right. We have worked with the clinicians, we have worked with the nurses, we've worked with the doctors and we believe we've got the system right.
And just to go back: to compare this to Tony Abbott's record. We know when he was Health Minister he took a billion dollars, a billion dollars out of the health system. He did.
JULIE BISHOP Oh Leigh please I've gotta break in at that point.
MARK ARBIB Today he said that wasn't the case. The facts show it - go to the budget papers.
JULIE BISHOP I have to break in with that point. No, I'm sorry, I am sorry. I have here the Australian Institute Health and Welfare document that sets out the total health expenditure under the Howard Government. We did not rip a billion dollars out. I give this to Mark Arbib.
MARK ARBIB Well I'll give you the budget papers. The budget papers are pretty clear.
LEIGH SALES You can swap your documents after the program. Let's look forward and not backward.
JULIE BISHOP Can I just make this one point? Can I just make this one point, Leigh?
LEIGH SALES Let me ask you is the Government… is the Opposition, sorry, going to pass this health reform through the Senate?
JULIE BISHOP Under the Howard Government public hospital funding increased every single year.
LEIGH SALES Let's look forward and not backwards.
MARK ARBIB It did not keep up with the increase in costs.
LEIGH SALES Let's talk about what's before us at the moment. Is the Opposition going to pass this plan in the Senate?
JULIE BISHOP Leigh the fact is in Australian history, in order for there to be state/federal reform you need all parties on side. This plan was dumped on the states this week and they were expected to respond at a COAG meeting in a month's time. The Prime Minister has not been honest and transparent with the states. He's dumped a plan on them and said "Take it or leave it." "Get out of the way," was his abusive comment to the states today. Now unless you have the state Premiers on side, this reform will not happen. It will be, again, just all talk.
LEIGH SALES You don't represent the state Premiers, you represent the Opposition. So are you going to pass it?
JULIE BISHOP If the states aren't on board it's not going to happen. So whatever happens in the Senate, if the states aren't on board, it's not going to go through. And that's why Kevin Rudd has deliberately made this announcement to take effect after the next election.
And can I take up had point about the 60/40 funding split. This was an old Whitlam trick. The Federal Government took more of the funding of the universities but the states continued to own the universities, own the buildings, own the assets, employ the staff and it didn't fix our universities, so the 60/40 split ...
MARK ARBIB We're talking about local hospital networks though, Julie.
JULIE BISHOP The 60/40 split in funding is just another example of how the blame game will continue. If the Commonwealth puts in 40 per cent or 50 per cent or 60 per cent, the states are still in there owning the asset, employing the staff unless the Commonwealth's going to start employing the doctors and nurses.
LEIGH SALES Mark Arbib, Julie Bishop raised this issue of having the get the states onside and then get it through Senate. Isn't the reality that it's going to be very, very difficult to get this happening?
MARK ARBIB It is going to be difficult but at the same time as that we have seen some positive comments. When you strip back what Kristina Keneally said today, I thought she was quite positive in terms of her approach. She wants more information and she's entitled to do that. She's trying to do the right thing by NSW patients ...
JULIE BISHOP She's told to get out of the way.
MARK ARBIB ... and we will sit down with Kristina Keneally, we'll sit down with all the state Premiers.
LEIGH SALES But do you really think though even if you get all of them onside that you're going to get Senator Fielding and Senator Xenophon and the Opposition to back you up?
MARK ARBIB Well, I have to say, if we can get the state Premiers onside and we get it through COAG, then if I was the Liberal Party I'd be supporting it, because they talk the talk on Health, they say it's gotta be fixed, but they will not put their money where their mouth is on this.
If you want to fix the health system, this is the one and only opportunity to do it. The Government is taking action. From the Coalition's point of view, it is more delay, more negative carping from the sidelines.
LEIGH SALES Is this all about being able to go to an election on health instead of climate change?
MARK ARBIB This is about actually fixing the health system. That's what we're about. Kevin Rudd promised to take responsibility to fix the health system. He is taking ...
JULIE BISHOP By June 2009.
MARK ARBIB Well that is true.
JULIE BISHOP It was a promise.
MARK ARBIB Julie you're right, we are running late, we're running seven months late, but this should have happened seven years ago when Tony Abbott was the Minister for Health. He shirked it. He took over one hospital. He should have tried to actually have the Federal Government be more cooperative with the states rather than playing the blame game.
LEIGH SALES Was it right of Kevin Rudd this week to tarnish the entire Government with that apology?
MARK ARBIB Well I don't think he was tarnishing the entire Government, nor was he tarnishing himself. He was talking about how difficult it is to put in place large, large reform. And when you're doing things like… in one week we started with the national curriculum, which again was a big, big reform. This is something that Julie in her time when she was the Education Minister talked about…
LEIGH SALES But did the Prime Minister undermine I guess the impact of that announcement by it coming on the back of him and saying, "Yeah, OK, well I admit we sort of haven't been at our best” basically, and then he announces two big initiatives during the week and we're meant to believe despite what he said that he's going to be up to delivering these massive reforms?
MARK ARBIB No, not at all. You can always be doing better and you've always got to self-analyse, and he believed that he needed to do better. And I think all Government Ministers… if you start getting satisfied with your performance then really that's not in the interests of the voters, so all of us have to lift our game.
LEIGH SALES Julie Bishop, Mark Arbib in his answer used the phrase "negative carping", which is exactly what I had in my next question to bring up with you, which is that this hospitals policy is a whisker away from what Tony Abbott's advocated.
JULIE BISHOP That's not right.
LEIGH SALES The Government's ETS is a whisker away from what the Coalition took to the last election under John Howard. Isn't the Opposition undermining its credibility and authority by simply opposing everything that the Government does all the time?
JULIE BISHOP Well we will always oppose bad public policy that results in bad outcomes.
LEIGH SALES But don't there have to be sometimes things that you agree with?
JULIE BISHOP Just a minute. There's an auditor-general's investigation into the home insulation program and Mark knows all about that; he's up to his neck in it. There's an auditor-general's investigation into the school halls program because of the debacle, the waste and mismanagement in that program. And now Kevin Rudd's asking the Australian public to trust him on the back of virtually a press release to meddle in our public hospitals without giving the state governments any information as to how he's going to do it. Why would anyone trust Kevin Rudd's government to run a program, let alone our public hospitals?
LEIGH SALES But why would anyone trust the Opposition when you are negative about absolutely everything?
JULIE BISHOP Because we did have a plan and we put out a plan before Kevin Rudd came up with his press release on hospitals, and that was for there to be local boards. Now it sounds simple, but there's a lot of complexity behind that because you need doctors and nurses employed by the hospital to have input into the running of that hospital.
On climate change, we have pointed out the fundamental flaws in Kevin Rudd's system. Under Malcolm Turnbull, we tried to amend it. Under Tony Abbott, we've come up with our own direct action plan. So we are coming up with positive ideas, we're coming out with positive policies. But on behalf of the Australian people we must point out the fundamental flaws in these rushed, ill-thought-out political fixes that Kevin Rudd insists on coming up with. And this hospital plan is a political fix, it is not a fix for our public hospitals.
LEIGH SALES I want to whip around a couple of other quick issues before we run out of time. Mark Arbib, is the Government scared to release the Henry tax review?
MARK ARBIB No, not at. This is a ...
LEIGH SALES Well what's taking so long?
MARK ARBIB This is an independent tax review that will look at our taxation system for decades, so we've gotta get it right.
LEIGH SALES Isn't the delay creating the impression that there's something to hide in it?
MARK ARBIB No, not at all. This is a reform that will set country up in terms of taxation for decades. We've gotta look at it carefully, we've gotta get it right. As I think the Treasurer has said, there'll be some things we agree with, there'll be other things we don't agree with but certainly we've gotta take our time and make sure we do this responsibly.
LEIGH SALES But the review's in. You don't have to look at the review and get it right.
MARK ARBIB But we've got it… well this was an independent review and we need to decide which elements we're going to be actually putting in place and which we're not.
LEIGH SALES You can do that when the review's out.
MARK ARBIB Sure, but as I've said - hang on a sec', Julie. As I've said, we've got take our time, we've got to get it right and that is what the Treasurer is doing, that is what he said.
LEIGH SALES Julie Bishop, the Coalition commissioned its own tax review from Henry Ergas. Remind me again what it said.
JULIE BISHOP Well can I just make this point?
LEIGH SALES Can I get you to answer my question?
JULIE BISHOP I will, I will. Can I make this point, all Kevin Rudd has to do is put the Henry review up on a website. He said he was too busy to release the report. Just put it on a website then everybody can have a look at it.
MARK ARBIB And then we do that and you'll say, "Why isn't Government the acting?," So we can't. No win situation.
JULIE BISHOP Just a minute, mate. He's got the full forces of Treasury, the power, the resources of Treasury to do a response - and that's fine, they'll do their response when they want to - but please, let the Australian people, business and the Opposition have a look at the Henry review because so much depends upon this root-and-branch review of taxation.
LEIGH SALES OK, now what did your review say?
JULIE BISHOP Well, I don't have our review. It was commissioned by Malcolm Turnbull. He asked Henry Ergas to do it.
LEIGH SALES So it's not been made public either?
JULIE BISHOP No he asked Henry Ergas to do it and Henry Ergas undertook some work. It was always going to be dependent upon what we were able to receive from the Henry review because the Henry review's got all the Treasury costings, all the modelling, we assume, and we will be able to respond.
Now, Henry Ergas has not been asked to do anything for us this year. We are waiting for the Henry review. We thought we'd have it by last Christmas and then we would be able to give a considered response.
LEIGH SALES Tomorrow, arguably, Labor's highest profile backbencher Belinda Neal is battling for pre-selection in the Government's most marginal seat, Robertson. Mark Arbib, is Belinda Neal Labor's best hope of retaining that seat?
MARK ARBIB Leigh, this is a pre-selection, we're on the eve of a pre-selection so you can imagine I'm not going to be stepping in and wading into a rank-and-file pre-selection.
LEIGH SALES It's the just you and me and 300,000 viewers, come on.
MARK ARBIB On a Friday night.
LEIGH SALES Well does she have your backing?
MARK ARBIB Ah, there's two good candidates, they're running in a pre-selection and it's up to the 160 rank and file party members to make that call.
LEIGH SALES Julie Bishop, the Liberal Party'd be rooting for a Belinda Neal victory wouldn't it?
JULIE BISHOP I think that it's going to be a very interesting outcome for the Labor Party. Likewise, I don't comment on pre-selections whether they're Liberal or Labor. I don't think it's fair and may the best person win.
MARK ARBIB Here, here. Here, here.
JULIE BISHOP But the Liberal Party will be ready to contest the seat. We've got a great candidate, so whoever Labor puts up I'm hoping that the Liberal candidate wins the seat.
MARK ARBIB Who's the candidate?
JULIE BISHOP I've met him. He's a policeman.
(Laughs)
LEIGH SALES Well, I think we'll leave it there and you can both go outside and beat each other up with your documents and whatnot. Thank you very much for coming in in person, Julie Bishop, Mark Arbib.
JULIE BISHOP Thanks. OK, Mark, show me where the - no money came out of it ...
MARK ARBIB Here's the budget papers, budget papers ...
